Advertiment: ti-ci textu is old. It contene errores! Yo hat creat un nov version del textu. Ples vider li nov version, quel es in un plu recent post.
Ti-ci traduction es un continuation de parte 2
Li sam die, on placatat li avise de un 'contribution de guerre' de six milliones, imposit por li besones del francesi armé, quel, hant just ganiat six battallies e conquestat duant provincias, mancat solmen sapates, pantalones, jaquettes e chapeles.
Li masse de bon-humor e de plesura quel iruptet ad-in Lombardia junt con ti-ci apovrat franceses esset tam grand que solmen li prestros e quelc nobilos aperceptet li dolore de ti-ci contribution de six milliones (un inicial contribution quel esset bentost sequet de mult altres). Ti-ci francesi soldates ridet e cantat tot li die; ili havet minu quam duantquin annus, e lor generalíssimo, qui havet duantsett annus, esset aparentmen li maxim old mann in su armé. Ti-ci gayitá, ti-ci yunitá, ti-ci ínsuciantie, respondet plesentmen al furiosi predicationes del monacos qui, durante li precedent six mensus, hat annunciat in li pulpit que li franceses esset monstrus qui esset obligat, sub pena de morte, incendiar omnicós e decapitar chascun, e pro to chascun regiment marchat con un guillotine a su cap.
In li campanias on videt al porta del cabanes li francesi soldate ocupat a lullar li bebé del dómina, e presc chascun véspere alcun tamburero, ludente li violine, improvisat un ball. Li contra-dansas esset mult tro desfacil e complicat por li soldates, qui apropó apen savet les self, dunc ili ne posse aprender les al féminas del país, e it esset ti-ci féminas qui demonstrat, al yun franceses, li Monferrina, Salterello e altri italian dansas.
Li traduction va esser continuat in parte 4...
Français: La Chartreuse de Parme, un roman de Stendhal
English: The Charterhouse of Parma, a novel by Stendhal
REFERENTIE
Glossarium in anglés
* bon-humor = good humour, happiness (fr. bonheur) [here preferred over alegria]
* che li domes del rich persones | che li rich persones | che li rich gente | che li riches = at the homes of the rich = with the rich (fr. chez les gens riches) [the first form is preferred by the translator as it is the least likely to be misunderstood internationally]
* contra-dansa = contradance = a style of country dancing popular in France in the 18th century, especially social dances, including for example the quadrille (fr. countredanse)
* generalíssimo = General-in-Chief (fr. général en chef) [variant spelling of generalissimo which emphasises the correct stress]
* ínsuciantie = carelessness, nonchalant manner, offhandedness (fr. insouciance)
* nankin = nankeen (fr. nankin)
* omnicós = everything [variant spelling of omnicos which emphasises the correct stress]
* quandecunc possibil = whenever possible = as much as possible (fr. autant que possibil)
* che li domes del rich persones | che li rich persones | che li rich gente | che li riches = at the homes of the rich = with the rich (fr. chez les gens riches) [the first form is preferred by the translator as it is the least likely to be misunderstood internationally]
* contra-dansa = contradance = a style of country dancing popular in France in the 18th century, especially social dances, including for example the quadrille (fr. countredanse)
* generalíssimo = General-in-Chief (fr. général en chef) [variant spelling of generalissimo which emphasises the correct stress]
* ínsuciantie = carelessness, nonchalant manner, offhandedness (fr. insouciance)
* nankin = nankeen (fr. nankin)
* omnicós = everything [variant spelling of omnicos which emphasises the correct stress]
* quandecunc possibil = whenever possible = as much as possible (fr. autant que possibil)
Brun indica un inventet parol o idioma (ne existe in li disponibil dictionariums)
Purpurie indica un personal preference del Occidental traductor (Robert Winter)fr. = francés
Sellamat Robert !
ReplyDeleteThat's very good; I have no errors to correct, just remarks in general about Occidental.
So, congratulations for having reached this good level !!! I am sure you'll be fluent (as much as one can be under the present circumstances) in Occidental.
Just a typo: "Lomardia"...
I thought "leutenant" was a typo too. Indeed, all Occ. Dictionnaries I could check have "leutenant"; that's strange, since the original word is "lieutenant".
"venient de ganiar" : IMO a gallicism "venant de gagner..."
I would suggest: "hant [just] ganiat" (having [just] won).
Esperanto, its descendants as well as Sambahsa, have the same system to express the near past; however, I could not find it in the Haas grammar.
"mancat solmen ..."; I don't know if Occidental uses "de" there, as in French. "manquer" can be intransitive, when the subject is the short-coming thing, but if the subject is the possessor, then "manqquer" is followed by "de". Once again, an unclear point in Occidental.
I suppose "nòbilo", "generalìssimo" should bear the stress; I don't know "Aperceptet"; is this a typo ?
"contra-dansa" is good, but do you know it comes from Eng. "country-dance" ?
Bravo, tui traduction esset tre bon !
Olivier
Just one note from me - francési doesn't need the accent since that's the penultimate syllable anyway.
ReplyDelete@Mithridates: Thanks for pointing that out.
ReplyDeletefrancési --> francesi: DONE.
francéses --> franceses: ALSO DONE BUT SEE BELOW.
This is an important topic. Firstly, readers need to be able to see where the stress lies; let's imagine a Korean reader. Stress is by far the most important thing and generally aids comprehension.
Secondly, readers sometimes preferably need to be able to see whether the vowel is open (like è / e / ê in French when it is "e ouvert" [ɛ]) or closed (like é in French, the "e fermé" [e]), notwithstanding that Occidental has no strict rule about such differences in pronunciation. This is because for some words, for example "café" and indeed "francés" the word is arguably easier to internationally recognise if the vowel is pronounced open; although to be honest it doesn't really matter too much and I guess that's why de Wahl didn't try to have an accent system which indicated both stress and sound but contented himself with only indicating stress. Anyway this is another reason I was writing "francési" and "francéses", to suggest [e] and thus to keep the pronunciation in line with "francés"; to me this made sense because I've generally hit upon the following rules in my own experimental pronunciation:
- é within or at the end of a word = stressed [e]
- e within or at the end of a word = [e] when stressed, [ɛ] when unstressed
However that was a bit naughty of me and you are quite correct, I think, that it should be unaccented "francesi" (and by extension unaccented "franceses").
Thirdly, preferably the reader needs to be able to see whether a vowel is long or short. Since this doesn't matter as much as the first two points, and I haven't had my breakfast yet, let's ignore this other than to mention that the scheme I'm generally using is to pronounce words like "mudde" with a short "u" and words like "mul" with a long "u"; similarly for me "cap" has a long "a" and sounds like the English word "carp" (with a non-rhotic R) and unlike the English word "cap". But I digress.
Incidentally the only remaining objection I have regarding Occidental is its pronunciation, which when pronounced like Italian I do not like as it is too prime a target for Romance drift as befell Interlingua; thus I have troubled to invent a scheme using a French-like or French/English-like R and few little conventions as noted above, to get a good literary sound which will resist drift and sound like a unique language in its own right. After initially despairing I am now happy to say it seems to be working; I will record myself reading the novel aloud in the near future as the experiment continues.
Anyway, I like Olivier's advice to write "omnicós" rather than "omnicos" and I am going to, for now, follow a rule that for words ending in S, regardless of whether or not they are plural, I will always accent the last vowel before the S if it is stressed and never accent the penultimate vowel if it would take the stress anyway (even though writing "francéses" would I think help our Korean reader rather than writing "franceses", at least for now). Thus I will do as follows:
café, cafés
omnicós [not omnicos]
francés, francese, franceses [not francése, francéses]
If the reader knows that the writer always follows my rule then the reader can always know that the stress must be francEses and not francesEs; without knowing that the writer follows my rule the reader cannot guess the correct stress unless they know that "franceses" is plural (they might think it is not plural, just like "omnicos" is not plural).
Anyway, thanks again, your help and advice is extremely important to me.
@cafaristeir: Thanks again for your wonderful help. It is very important to me. When all this is finished I plan to document everything I have learned, probably by releasing an annotated version of an Occidental dictionary and possibly also a small annotated grammar; these documents would form appendixes or additional available downloads to any novel or short stories I might release in the language.
ReplyDeleteThus, all the kind help you and Mithridates are giving me now will hopefully be repaid to the community in general by the resulting documentation being of great assistance to all users of the language. By taking an approach which is, for the most part, free and open-source, the language can spread and gain popularity just as computer languages such as Python and Ruby have spread and gained popularity. This incidentally highlights a critical, strategic error that the UMI have made with Interlingua: they have taken a traditional, closed-source approach, asking people to pay money for copyrighted dictionaries (e.g. the excellent French-Interlingua dictionary) instead of getting with the times and encouraging the free, open exchange and spread of information including all dictionaries. There is therefore a major opportunity here for Occidental to succeed where Interlingua failed, so long as Occidental follows the model of Python and Ruby; you will find a community will naturally grow around a good language which is free and open. Anyway, back to the matter at hand...
I fixed the typos and:
* venient de ganiar six battallies e de conquestar duant provincias --> hant just ganiat six battallies e conquestat duant provincias: DONE
This is WONDERFUL! Thank you so much. The above is actually the perfect example of the dreaded Romance-language-idiom problem which makes, for example, Interlingua so difficult to use. You see, I had no idea that "venant de gagner..." was mainly a Gallicism; how could I know that since I do not speak any other Romance languages and only speak French badly? However, the best I could manage was to try to imitate the original; which is why Interlingua drifts in a million different directions and becomes unintelligible. But "hant ganiat" is a lovely solution, a solution which is an Occidental solution, following the regular rules of Occidental; thus Occidental gets to become an intelligible language in its own right, and not just an ill-defined, highly variable, imitation of one Romance language or another. Thanks so much for solving that particular grammatical problem for me. This is the kind of thing hopefully I will formally document one day; in the meantime this blog will assist others.
Continued in next comment...
... continued from last comment...
ReplyDeleteFrom the Rice dictionary:
apercepter:: APPERCEIVE
aperception:: APPERCEPTION
percepter:: PERCEIVE...
Nice words, very useful. I like the slight but helpful distinction between "apercepter" and "percepter", although it would not be wrong simply to use "percepter" here.
I'm guessing that Steve Rice must have done quite extensive translations as I am constantly amazed by the breadth of the dictionary; pick some rare word at random, such as epaulette, and it is usually there: "epolette". Amazing. This dictionary, and the translated Haas grammar, single-handedly save Occidental from obscurity and make it a usable literary language. Mithridates and Steve Rice have saved Occidental from the grave, brought it back from the tomb. Without their documentation it would be hopeless. And of course, Olivier, your help has been absolutely precious, invaluable and indispensable. The three of you have together saved a language. There is also a small community of enthusiastic users but it is specifically you three who have made serious literary use of the language possible in the 21st century; without Steve's dictionary, Mithridates' grammar translation, and your assistance I could not now be translating a French novel into Occidental. Thank you all again so much, you are very kind.
* nobilo: LEAVING AS IS (TRICKY ONE)
* generalissimo --> generalíssimo: DONE (TRICKY ONE)
Thanks for pointing that out. Generalíssimo is an instance in which the Rice dictionary, and indeed the Haas grammar, probably need to be updated. The suffix -issim / -issimo should definitely be written and pronounced -íssim / íssimo (a matter of stress); based for example on the already internationally accepted practice in music (e.g. fortissimo).
The case of "nobil" is a tricky one; according to Haas the syllable -bil- is never stressed, so "nobil" is always pronounced as if written "nóbil" (adjective). Now, forming the noun "nobilo" we still can follow the rule that the syllable -bil- is never stressed to correctly guess that "nobilo" is pronounced as if written "nóbilo". However, such matters are quite a concern to me. In the light of further experience gained as I continue to translate this novel, hopefully I can make a well-informed decision about when to mark and when not to mark stress, overall. The annoying thing is that if a reader uses a computer to search the dictionary for "nóbilo" they will not find "nobilo" and vice versa, so this is a concern.
Interesting about "country dance", thanks!
* mancat solmen sapates, pantalones, jaquettes e chapeles --> mancat solmen de sapates, de pantalones, de jaquettes e de chapeles: NOT DONE (TRICKY ONE).
This one really hurts my brain. I am tempted to make the change and to write the sentence as in French, using the preposition "de", but truly I think the meaning here is entirely clear from the context anyway without needing to add the preposition. The only thing I'm not sure of is whether following this pattern will later cause confusion when I might wish to use the verb "mancar" intransitively. My gut feeling is that no, it will not cause a problem, since context will also make that clear. So, at least for now, following my self-imposed rule of never using prepositions unless they are absolutely necessary, I am going to leave it the way it is. That is, if you like, I'm here using "mancar" like the English verb "to lack", as in the modern English usage "they lacked only shoes" rather than the archaic English usage "they lacked only for shoes". Maybe this will come back to haunt me later but my gut feeling is that it is okay as is. Thanks for pointing it out, though, as I was very interested to see what you would say about this.
Onward...
Sellamat Robert !
ReplyDelete(about pronounciation). IMO, I suppose that if Occidental would get (widely) spoken, an eventual difference between "é" and "è" would disappear. In French, the difference is quite unperceptible in unstressed syllables (in the stressed, ie the last one, this difference remains however fundamental). I suppose Sambahsa would follow the same rules as you describe for its stressed "e"'s, but I prefer not to turn this into a fixed rule.
That's the same with the double consonants and long vowels, I don't expect many people could mark the difference between "stal" and "stall" (as foreign speakers with English "bitch" and "beach"); I have kept such features in Sambahsa, but for other reasons than distinctive: etymology, grammatical indications, place of the stress...
Stress is a widespread feature (except in French !); Occidental has less rules on this topic than Sambahsa, but the problem is that you have often to indicate the stress in writing, and thus to be aware of the Romance etymology...
As you rightly pointed out (as a computer programmer), the use of signs outside the 26 alphabet letters is awkward with keyboards or retrieval systems. Sambahsa has therefore banned them completely. I have heard that J.Landais' Uropi is facing a problem with the "3"-like sign used for the "zh" sound.
Olivier
@cafaristeir: Sellamat Olivier !
ReplyDeleteWow. I think what you have written about the disappearing differences between different but similar vowel sounds is profound and important. I had actually never thought of it like that before. It is especially fascinating to hear that even for French, a language which goes to exceptional lengths to mark such differences in its orthography, the difference is quite imperceptible in unstressed syllables.
I need to give this quite a lot of thought over the months to come. For example, I should probably stop writng "ché" and just write "che" and just accept that there need not be any difference for an auxiliary language and in many cases even for a natural language. Such an approach would work for Occidental since as far as I know, no words or almost no words in Occidental are distinguished on the basis of the stress-marking accent alone. Therefore one could simply pronounce all Es the same.
As an additional thought, the lack of importance of stress in French is even more fascinating to consider. My understanding is that in French, regarding stress, what matters is groups of words rather than individual words. But that is getting a bit off-topic...
Re-sellamat !
ReplyDeleteIn French, the difference is not vey important in unstressed syllables, when it remains cogent in stressed ones. If someone says "beau" with an open "o" instead "ô", that will sound very boorish !
Because of its historical evolution, French has only a sobber stress on the light consonant, except when there's a final euphonic "e", ex: "quatre" = [kAtrë]. That's of course an advantage for foreign speakers. Because of this, I agree that groups of words seem more important in French than words alone, as it is in English. The lack of stress entails a frequent homophony only avoided by the context or the surrounding words.
In Occ, I often refrain from indicating accents when they're useless (ex: "francesi" is self-sufficient). A famous case where stress distinguishes words in Occ. is the prefix of opposition "ìn" as opposed to "in", but that's an invention of Von Wahl, not a reality from Romance languages.
@cafaristeir: Oh yes, of course, thanks for reminding me. There is indeed the famous case of words which start with ín- rather than in; that is the only example I can think of where Occidental might distinguish between words only on the basis of the marked accent (and hence the pronounced stress) alone, although in reality in most cases these are not identical words which are the same in every respect except the ín- or in- prefix.
ReplyDeleteI remember when I first read about the ín- or in- difference I thought it was a bad thing and actually made a note in the grammar to that effect, but nowadays to be honest I don't see it as a problem and rather like the system. I believe it is logical.
Actually, my current opinion is that for anybody who wants to write literature for a Western audience, especially a Continental European audience, using a constructed language, Occidental is so much better than any of the Big Three (Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua) that there is just no contest. Here I am speaking of writing not specifically for readers who speak a Romance language but generally for readers from across Europe, many of whom do not speak any Romance language. For example in my opinion speakers of German should be able to read Occidental after only a little study (this is something I feel I can usefully judge since I did three years of German at high school). The logical and regular nature of the language (relatively speaking, while still retaining a naturalistic aspect), its easier spelling, its more predictable pronunciation, its lesser susceptibility to Romance drift compared to Interlingua, and its lesser requirement for a knowledge of Romance idioms compared to Interlingua, clearly make it superior for this purpose. As I say, really I now believe it is no contest between these four languages, Occidental wins hands down. It quite simply... works.
What is frustrating is that it took me ten months to figure this out. One is so bombarded with propaganda about Esperanto, Ido, and Interlingua, and there is so little information available about Occidental, that it is difficult to actually discover how good Occidental is. Importantly, unlike the Big Three, Occidental has not already failed in the Internet Age; in fact, Occidental hasn't even gotten started yet.
By the way, I have with this post just crossed a very major milestone: I have, for the first time, translated more than 1000 words of a single work of literature into a constructed language! And done so in a high-quality, literary fashion (not just some kind of crude translation without nuance or literary value). That is a major event in my journey. It is notable that none of the Big Three languages made this possible for me; indeed I found it utterly impossible to do so in any of the Big Three languages, at least with my own personal strengths and weaknesses as a writer, despite trying very, very hard.
My advice to writers at this stage, who might be interested in constructed languages, is to bypass the Big Three. Do not even waste one minute of time looking at them, except maybe glance at the dictionaries of Interlingua merely as a lexical resource for reference purposes but do not attempt to use that language. Instead, go directly to the lesser-known constructed languages. For serious literary use right now the only viable choices are Occidental or Sambahsa. Sometime in the next few years Lingwa de Planeta, Frenkisch, Lingua Franca Nova, or other languages might evolve to the point of also becoming viable but they are not quite there yet, not quite mature enough yet and still have further evolution to do and further change needed, despite each being promising in different ways. Occidental and Sambahsa, on the other hand, are already mature. This is what it's taken me ten months to learn.
Sellamat Robert !
ReplyDeleteThanks for putting Sambahsa on the top of the list ! There are many Germans on the Occidental Yahoo Group but this may be due to the fact that there is an excellent Occidental course in German (the one I used). But that's true, I've seen many (non-Romance) Europeans who like Occidental, and whose motivation can be compared to the one of our friend Jasmin in China.
I agree for the propaganda about Esperanto, which is detrimental to the whole auxlang movement. Esperanto attracts a minority of fans, but repells a majority of people because of its unnaturalness.
So, ready to cross the 2000-words limit ? :-)